Grief in the Black Community, a Conversation With Darnell Lamont Walker Transcript

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
Welcome to the Remembering A Life Podcast. I'm your host, Holly Ignatowski. Today my guest is Darnell Lamont Walker, Emmy nominated television writer, content creator, filmmaker, healer, and death doula. His credits include writing for children's programming, including Blues Clues and You, Two Whats and a Wow, Karma's World, and work as a filmmaker for Seeking Asylum, Outside the House and Set Yourself on Fire. Darnell wears many hats, but today we're going to have a conversation about his work as a death doula and learn more about grief in the Black community. Welcome Darnell. Thank you so much for joining me today.

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
Let's start with death doula. If you could just give us kind of a definition of what that is and what inspired you to do this kind of work and work as a healer.

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
The thing that inspired me, I'll start there, is watching family take care of each other and especially my grandmother who took in everyone who was sick, whenever someone was dying, she was at the hospital, she was inviting them into her home, and it was always just an open conversation we had when I was nine and her sister died, and I just remembered the conversations around it and it was my first time being around death in that way and having death so close to me. And I remember the conversations that were happening around the time and about grief and what happens next, and the planning that went into it. And for some reason, the adults, they saw something in me where they felt I could be of service and I was capable of having these conversations. And so there were many times they talked to me about what was happening with my aunt at the hospital and even after she died.

And so watching that and then having family come home to die and watching my grandmother take care of them and then watching my mom also take care of family who was sick, family who were dying at the time. And it was just something that I saw from an early age and me joining them to do these things. It was just something that we did as family. They didn't have a title for it. I didn't hear the term death doula until many, many, many years later. I always say it's just helping people cope in the end with death and helping them realize and recognize that it's a very natural and important part of life, helping them realize that they aren't alone, making sure that no one's alone in the end, I would like it if no one was ever alone in those last moments. I think it's such beautiful thing for so many, a beautiful next step and sometimes a very hard one and just, if I could be a part of that for anyone, I'm always happy to do it.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
So you had that calling at a very young age. How did you actually get started as a profession and talk about how it's changed in all the years that you've been involved.

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
As a profession. Like I said, it wasn't until 2015 when, yeah, around 2015 when I first heard the term, I was talking to a friend who was a hospice nurse, and I was telling her about these experiences when I was nine, when I was 12, and I even volunteered at a hospice when I was about 13 and just sharing these experiences with my friend. And she says, oh, well, it sounds like you're a death doula. We have people who do that work at the hospice where I work. And I thought, death doula, I've never heard of that. And of course I've heard of birth doula. And so naturally I'm like, okay, well the birth doulas bring people in and death doulas helped usher them out basically. And I went and looked into it and thought to myself, I said, this is everything that I've been doing for the last couple of decades it seemed.

And I leaned into it. I started contacting professionals who were intentionally doing the work for me. It was more so just helping and taking care and holding space for people. But I contacted some professionals and some other hospice nurses and they put me in touch with a couple of deaf doulas that they knew, and it kind of just went from there. The more I learned about it, the more I grew into it with intention, people started reaching out and saying, Hey, I just lost someone. Could I talk to you about that? Or how can I deal with this grief? And then every so often, it was my mom's dying, could you come and talk with her? There's some things that I'd like to know. Could you help facilitate these conversations? And that I had family members who were dying. My grandfather died and I was able to be there and be a death doula for him. And then it just kept picking up from there. And slowly but surely, it's just been going with intention for the last almost nine years now.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
And how do families find you? Is it through the hospitals that you work at? Is it word of mouth?

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
Yeah, right now it's always been word of mouth until these last, I'd say the last year and now thanks to the Endwell conference and I did a few opinion pieces. People have found me that way where they say, I was Googling how to deal with death and I found you, and this is how things have been popping up. And so now it's so many different ways people are getting referred to me, and it's great that more and more people are opening up to these conversations especially, but also having someone there to help them and know that they aren't alone.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
Darnell, talk about the kind of assistance that you offer to families and to people who are passing away what they need the most from you. I would imagine you're involved before, during the process and after. Can you talk about that?

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
Yeah, it just depends on the family. There are a lot of times where I'd say the majority of the people I work with, they call to help work through grief and because they just lost someone and they're not sure how to navigate that while also preparing for the funeral, preparing for any ceremonies, any rituals they want to do. And so I come in to help with that, help them get answers they may need, help them reconcile with family. And it is not as common for me to get a call from someone who is at the end of their life and they just want someone to be there. I mean, it happens. I'd say where I may get calls maybe 50, 60 times a year from a family or a person that wants help through the grief. There may be between five and 10 calls that come in to say someone's at the end of their life, could you come in and be with them?

But I help advocate in the medical setting and hospitals for families for the patient. I help hold bedside vigils often. Even letter writing. I'm a huge … I'm a writer by profession and I love the written word, and so I've been able to incorporate that into a lot of what I do. I help families write letters to each other to get closure. Mothers and daughters. I had a patient recently who was at the end of her life and helped her and her son find closure in their relationship and get the answers they needed and wanted and deserved through letter writing. Even helping them prepare their obituary. I'm huge on … I think everyone's lived such an amazing and full life that I love when it's shown through the obituary. And so a lot of times I help them create works that show that they lived and not just they were born, they died and here are some people they left behind and it's been great. It's everything in between. Setting up conversations between them and alternative burial services and just opening them up to those things. There are a lot of people who don't know. They think there are only two options cremation and being buried, and there's so many more. And so it's all of that whenever I get the call for, and if I don't know it, I know someone who may. And so putting them in touch with whoever they need to talk to as well, always a pleasure.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
So you're almost in somewhat of a counselor role, maybe even aiding in some sort of reconciliation. Are families open to that when it comes to talking about death with a loved one? Do you find that they're pretty ready to do that or do you have to do some tugging?

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
What I found is that they're pretty ready to do it. I think the thing that happens sadly at the end, the end of life is people open up and they realize that there isn't a lot of time and this is the last chance to make this happen. I wish it came much sooner. I wish it was just a natural part of the conversation, but in the end, I find that families are very ready to go down that road and start it. And it's just such a great thing to be there because then a lot of times we're able to find these tools or I'm able to provide them with some information or help them find the information they need, and then it doesn't take the next step to do that. And they're able to have these conversations with the people in their life who aren't at the end of their life.

And so you could see them changing over time and seeing how the conversation is becoming more and more even in the last, oh, that was one of the questions you asked earlier is what have I seen change? I've seen that families now are more open to talking about death since 2015. No one … it was hard having those conversations. It was hard telling people, oh, I'm a death doula, and people will shut down and go, oh, I don't want to talk about that. And now so many of us have lost so many people and so much over the last couple of years that it's like, you know what? I think we have to, and sadly it took that for us to get here, but here we are.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
Do you think that's it? Do you think the pandemic is what caused that to change, to evolve?

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
I think the pandemic was part of it, and I just think that so many of us have seen how it's not helpful to be so shut down. Even now, I think just on the mental health side of things, we're in lounges and going out with friends and brunch and we're talking about our therapist. This didn't happen 10 years ago. My parents weren't having these conversations. And so now I just think people are realizing, you know what? I need to open up because this is not working. This is not working for me anymore. We're tired of people dying and no one knows what to do. It's like even down to what we're going to put them in the casket, what are we going to bury them in? Or where's the money or the family arguments. People are tired of it. And so now the conversations are starting because we've reached a deep level of exhaustion.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
And how do you start those conversations? I'm assuming these are mostly families that you don't know, you've maybe never met before. How do you begin that process?

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
Yeah, I go straight in. I just ask, what are your thoughts about death? How would you like it to happen? When you go and people just open up, it's like, oh, we're going to go straight to it. Where for years it was kind of like a beating around the bush where I somehow knew how to bring just about any conversation around to a death conversation. And now it's like, you know what? Let's just go straight in and ask those questions. What do you value when you die? What do you want your obituary to say? Do you want to die at home or in the hospital? And if this was you or now that your loved one is dying, is there anything that you feel you need answered? And it's being direct that people really open up. They're like, oh, we're going to get right to it. Yes, we don't know if we have time to play around at this moment. We have to get these answers. I need to know this because at any moment, any one of us could just be gone, so let's get to it. Right. So yeah, I go straight in.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
How do you feel that your work ultimately helps not only the individual who's dying, but also supports the family and friends as they begin their grief journey?

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
So for the family and friends, a lot of times what I found for a lot of the folks I work with is that a lot of the grief, a big part of the grief comes from unanswered questions. And so being able to bring them in, include them in the process, and facilitate these conversations between them and the person who's dying, but also between each other. A lot of times these families have a lot to deal with each other even, especially the people who are left behind. And so having those conversations, and it really, you get to see how different it is when once that person dies, how not easier it is, the grief is, but how much more they accept the death, they got what they needed, they got everything out that they needed to say. A lot of times, I wish I had said this. I wish I knew what this person was thinking about this or how this person felt about this, or I wish they knew I felt this way about them. And there's so many regrets. And so trying to ease those, A lot of my job is try to help manage those regrets. So there aren't so many.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
Is that the reward for you? What is the most rewarding part of this work for you, Darnell?

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
Oh yeah, the most rewarding part for me, I think it's just helping people realize they aren't alone. That's a big thing for me. And even from, I think even my earliest memories, it was whenever someone was alone or felt lonely, it was just, I'll be your friend. I remember kindergarten when that was happening and nine years old and volunteering at the hospice of 13. It was me going into the room of these people whose family just didn't visit. And at the time, I didn't think about any of this. It was just, oh yeah, I'll do it. I'll come in here. And it's just what stayed throughout my life, helping people not be just in the dark and by themselves in the end.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
Let's talk a little bit about cultural traditions. So funerals, memorial services, they're very different. They vary based on a variety of factors including cultural heritage. How might members of the Black community honor the life of a loved one and how might that be different from say, other cultural traditions?

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
So a lot of times in the Black community, there's what we call the Homegoing celebration, and it's an actual celebration. There are parties and the repast, which is a moment of you have this funeral that's so sad and often so sad. It doesn't have to be, but it's often so sad. But then you have the repast right after, and it's full of joy and life and storytelling. Storytelling is a huge part of the African-American tradition also. And bringing those stories in, having family come in and share even a part of the funeral is that having moments of reflection where people get up and they share these stories of the person to help others create a full life. We all know that there are people who know parts of us, and so we bring all these people together and between everyone, we could create a full life for that person.
You go to New Orleans, there are parades, and the music is amazing. And for long after … years … I think for most of the people I know for the years following their death, people come together you know on birthdays or death days and celebrate that life. So all that to say, it's more of a celebration of life and celebration that this person got through it and has gone on to this bigger reward, this bigger adventure, this big journey after. And so it is great to see it. It's great. I love helping with those things. I wish we celebrated life more when the person was alive and talked about it more. Because I think for me growing up, it was so confusing when I got to these celebrations because for me, it seemed out of nowhere because we never talked about death as a whole. Me and my mom and me and my grandmother, we talked about it often, me and my mom, we still talk about it and talk about plans, but so often we just never talked about death. And so when we got to the funeral, it was like this grand Homegoing celebration. And I'm like, oh, but maybe it could have been bigger. We talked, had we been talking about this for the last couple of years or started the conversations. And so now what I'm doing is trying to change that. I'm trying to have these conversations so that the celebration is even more grand and what the person would've wanted truly.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
So it sounds like your own personal experiences with death and also working with a variety of families as a death doula have really enlightened you about differences in grieving, is that right?

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Grief. It's hard to even define or I never tell people how to do what it looks like because I've seen it done so many ways and I've seen it, but I do tell, I try to tell people who say, I don't think I've even grieved yet. It's like, maybe you have, and maybe it just didn't look like what you thought it would look like. People think they have to break down and cry, and just because you didn't shed any tears, it doesn't mean you didn't grieve. And so yeah, these personal experiences that I've had have really opened me up to so much of that and being able to help people through that. I have one friend who lost his father not long ago, maybe two years ago, and recently he said, I don't think that it's hit me yet. And that's a phrase that I've heard so many times. It's like, well, what did you want it to look like? And they say, well, I don't know. I just thought I would break down and cry. I didn't even cry at the funeral. It's like, and that's okay. Maybe that's not what grief looks like for you.

And so these experiences have helped me recognize that.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
And I often say grief is not a one size fits all. We all grieve in our own personal way. We all do grieve, but it doesn't necessarily look the same. Right?

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
Absolutely.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
How would you describe grief? Is it different in the black community? Does it look different?

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
Yes, absolutely. Black grief is different in that it's very communal. We come together as a community to do it because a lot of times it's this thing that we all recognize and we all know that it's a unique thing for us. It's that celebration of life. It's the storytelling that's important to us, how we hold each other through it. But it's also very frequent. There isn't a time when we are, we're trying to grieve one thing because it's communal, because it's someone who we didn't even know may have died even when during the epidemic, and we're working through that. But then George Floyd gets killed, and then we grieve that because we see George Floyd and because our grief is communal, he represents our uncle, our father, our brother. And now we have to grieve that and then something else happens and we have to grieve that.

And so we are never fully over or through the grief and not sure if we ever get through grief, but while we're in the midst of grieving one thing, another thing comes along and we have to grieve that as well. And then working with and through these systems, the medical system, especially, like I said, a lot of times I have to advocate in that because of Black experience in the medical system, even recent. And so it's all of that. And so we have to come together and work together through the grief and as a large system of support for each other.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
Okay. I'd be remiss if I didn't ask at least one question about your work writing for children's programming because you have a large body of work. What role do you think children's programming can play in helping kids better understand death, get through the grief process, and the unique maybe foreign emotions that they might feel after a loss?

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
Yeah, great question. I do love talking about the children's writing and creative for kids. And I think what could happen, I would love to see these networks. I would love to see these content creators really craft stories around death and dying for children. A lot of times I get parents who call and say, I don't know what to say to my son. A friend recently, her son just lost an uncle, and it was the third relative that he was close to that he lost over the last year. And she's like, I don't know what to say. And I know there's so much space for television, for these shows, for these networks, the writers, to really showcase it and have those stories and help families at least start the conversation. It's like, I know it's hard to talk to your kids about death, but what if there was something that could help you?

And as a writer, there are times when I'll go and I'll try to pitch a story about it for the shows where it can fit. And a lot of times I'll hear, well, maybe we can have it where the pet dies. And it's like, yes, but people die too. And it's sometimes different when your grandmother dies versus when your goldfish dies. And I think we need to talk about that and help kids talk about it. And I know it would make a big difference, and I would love to see it. I remember Sesame did it many years ago and it, right. And I think so many studios are afraid of doing it wrong, but I don't think there is a wrong way to do it. I think if you write about it, there are so many people who can relate to it, and even those who can't relate will have a conversation around it and it will open them up to it. I would love to see that. I'm pushing for it. I am creating stories around it. There are some amazing people who are writing children's books around it. There was an incredible film animated short film a couple of years ago that talked about that. That was all about grief. And I see it happening, but it's in such small doses and it's not where millions of people are going to see it, unfortunately. And I would love to get it there.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
Well, I'm confident you'll change that for us.

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
I appreciate it.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
Darnell, I have to, I ask all my guests, who are you remembering today

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
Oh, I’m remembering today, a friend who died recently. Her name is Dale Sharp. She died on New Year's Eve, and she was a good friend's mother, but I was so glad that I was able to sit with her and laugh with her a couple of years ago. And we just ate pizza and drank wine and just laughed and had a great afternoon after years of knowing her. And this was our first time meeting. And so then keeping that alive throughout the years. And so when I heard that she was at the end of her life, it was a touching moment, but being able to tell those stories and about that day that we laughed and with her daughter and her granddaughters and family was just a beautiful thing. So I'm remembering her and all that she left behind. I can see it daily wherever I look, and every time I think about her, I just laugh and smile.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
That's a beautiful thing. How would you like to be remembered, Darnell

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
Oh, yeah. I would love to be remembered as this person who brought people together who just enjoyed life. In the end, I want people to say he did it. He did it. He did what he wanted to do. He loved it all. He enjoyed it. He left nothing behind, and that's it. I just want to be, when people think about me, I want them to smile. I want them to laugh. Just burst out laughing at something crazy we did together or something they heard, something they read about me or whatever that is. I would love that.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
Thank you so much, Darnell, for sharing the important and meaningful work that you do, not only to help families, but to educate people about grief and loss and the importance of actually remembering our loved ones and talking about the things that we should talk about, but probably don't.

DARNELL LAMONT WALKER:
Absolutely. And I'm always open to having that conversation always open to helping people start those conversations. I think it's beyond time. So thank you for providing that space to do that.

HOLLY IGNATOWSKI:
For more information about Darnell and the work that he does, visit Darnellwalker.com. For more information about the grief journey and remembering loved ones in meaningful ways, visit rememberingalife.com.